2013-04-20T00:08:10 *** fsvgm777 has quit IRC 2013-04-20T00:35:37 *** DeltaSierra4 has quit IRC 2013-04-20T00:36:08 *** DeltaSierra4 has joined #thcrap 2013-04-20T01:05:27 *** Twidona has quit IRC 2013-04-20T02:44:42 *** DeltaSierra4 has quit IRC 2013-04-20T05:10:18 *** toshiaki has quit IRC 2013-04-20T05:10:49 *** Ikubi_Ikarabi has joined #thcrap 2013-04-20T05:13:13 *** Ibaraki_Ibuki has quit IRC 2013-04-20T05:13:14 *** Ikubi_Ikarabi is now known as Ibaraki_Ibuki 2013-04-20T05:17:41 *** toshiaki has joined #thcrap 2013-04-20T05:27:45 *** Tosiaki has joined #thcrap 2013-04-20T05:30:34 *** toshiaki has quit IRC 2013-04-20T05:43:29 *** DeltaSierra4 has joined #thcrap 2013-04-20T05:49:25 *** DeltaSierra4 has quit IRC 2013-04-20T06:07:32 *** DeltaSierra4 has joined #thcrap 2013-04-20T06:14:19 *** DeltaSierra4 has quit IRC 2013-04-20T06:22:14 *** Tosiaki has quit IRC 2013-04-20T06:25:08 *** Ibaraki_Ibuki has quit IRC 2013-04-20T06:51:06 *** Nazeo has quit IRC 2013-04-20T06:53:47 *** tosiaki has joined #thcrap 2013-04-20T07:00:41 *** DeltaSierra4 has joined #thcrap 2013-04-20T07:48:54 *** Nmlgc has joined #thcrap 2013-04-20T08:50:43 *** DeltaSierra4 has quit IRC 2013-04-20T08:56:46 *** DeltaSierra4 has joined #thcrap 2013-04-20T09:31:55 *** DeltaSierra4 has quit IRC 2013-04-20T09:35:19 *** tosiaki has quit IRC 2013-04-20T10:21:39 *** fsvgm777 has joined #thcrap 2013-04-20T11:26:17 *** tosiaki has joined #thcrap 2013-04-20T12:05:20 *** tosiaki has quit IRC 2013-04-20T15:12:00 *** Ibaraki_Ibuki has joined #thcrap 2013-04-20T15:22:56 *** Twidona has joined #thcrap 2013-04-20T15:52:45 *** tosiaki has joined #thcrap 2013-04-20T16:10:18 *** tosiaki has quit IRC 2013-04-20T16:41:19 *** tosiaki has joined #thcrap 2013-04-20T18:54:16 Sigh sigh sigh 2013-04-20T18:54:37 *** Nazeo has joined #thcrap 2013-04-20T18:54:43 Sigh... 2013-04-20T18:54:50 ? 2013-04-20T18:55:10 When I hear someone say "Sakuya Izayoi," and mentions how he knows that he is the "maid of the vampire" and also has "pads," and names other facts, I get seriously depressed. 2013-04-20T18:55:19 In fact, just about 30 seconds ago. 2013-04-20T18:55:51 Perhaps it's because it reminds me a lot about "what is missing in this culture." 2013-04-20T18:56:30 That even if people know about such characters such as "Sakuya Izayoi," and even if they read everything on the current Touhou Wiki about them, that it would still feel to me that it is missing an important part of the "spirit" of it. 2013-04-20T18:56:57 Oh dear... 2013-04-20T18:59:46 I also felt the same kind of frustration about 2 and a half hours ago when I heard the background music for stage 6 of Subterranean Animism and heard someone introduce it as a game, although I admit that I did something similar to that a few years ago. But it does feel superficial to regard it as a game; if it were merely a game, there are many others that are pretty much the same. 2013-04-20T19:00:21 But of course, that is not the only thing; it still feels frustrating even if they knew everything about the characters etc. 2013-04-20T19:00:44 Welcome to the Touhou Fandom buddy 2013-04-20T19:02:11 Well, watching videos on Nicovideo felt much better when I regarded Japanese people more positively than I did now, because I did feel that they did have the "true spirit" of it. But it's different here in the U.S. or anywhere outside of Japan for that matter. I am pretty sure I know the reason why it's different, but am still not exactly sure what this "true spirit" is. 2013-04-20T19:03:44 The "true spirit" is whatever a person makes it 2013-04-20T19:03:45 :o 2013-04-20T19:04:48 Indeed, but in my case, it is something that is much bigger. Because... I regard it as something that has potential to revolutionize culture, if only the proper steps were done. But certainly just importing things from Japan is not enough. 2013-04-20T19:05:07 Well... 2013-04-20T19:05:14 * Nazeo points at EoSD. 2013-04-20T19:05:25 That was a blend of Western and Eastern elements 2013-04-20T19:05:26 tosiaki: I agree with you on that 2013-04-20T19:05:53 It also happens to be the most fondly regarded/ 2013-04-20T19:07:57 Yes, but... (now please bear with me if I might sound crazy, because I fear that these things might sound crazy sometimes, having never said these things to others...) would you understand what I mean by an "independent culture" that is "participatory" and "without a clear line between creator and participant" and "free from commercial influence"? To give a concrete example, I do not believe that the "so 2013-04-20T19:07:57 ft power" we have now, for example, in commercial franches like McDonalds, are a positive influence in the world or improve America's image, even if they have a heavy presence in the middle east... 2013-04-20T19:10:35 Hmmm? Did I sound crazy? 2013-04-20T19:11:04 I mean, I guess that it is sorta the direction the internet has been bringing this, with YouTube etc... 2013-04-20T19:12:04 But if there's one more thing that's important in this equation, it's that I seriously do regard all the "big business" in modern popular culture to be truly evil. Especially Hollywood etc. 2013-04-20T19:12:16 Even before they began pushing for SOPA/PIPA etc. 2013-04-20T19:13:23 Please do tell me if I am making sense is what I have been saying so far. 2013-04-20T19:13:34 ("in," not "is") 2013-04-20T19:13:42 Well 2013-04-20T19:13:50 The internet itself is chaos 2013-04-20T19:13:59 There is no way to coordinate it 2013-04-20T19:14:09 In the end 2013-04-20T19:14:10 *? 2013-04-20T19:14:18 People will do as they please. 2013-04-20T19:15:13 Yes, the problem is not with the internet itslef, but with certain elements outside the internet... 2013-04-20T19:15:23 * Nazeo nods 2013-04-20T19:15:34 I'm a part of such chaos :P 2013-04-20T19:20:45 So yes, I am talking about popular culture outside the internet. And my only conclusion is: hollywood needs to be destroyed. 2013-04-20T19:21:18 Well, the music industry (RIAA etc.) too, probably. 2013-04-20T19:21:54 ... 2013-04-20T19:21:55 YES 2013-04-20T19:22:02 I've been hearing here and there about calls for boycotts of everything for protesting SOPA and PIPA, but how would one realistically do it? One needs an alternate culture to replace it. 2013-04-20T19:22:02 Destroy Hollywood. 2013-04-20T19:23:40 ok, now you guys sound crazy 2013-04-20T19:23:46 XD 2013-04-20T19:23:51 SOPA/PIPA/whatever should have just passed. 2013-04-20T19:23:56 ........ 2013-04-20T19:24:01 You know why? 2013-04-20T19:24:05 * Nazeo burns Nmlgc with fire- okay why? 2013-04-20T19:24:20 Do tell 2013-04-20T19:25:09 It's simple. If people really had to fear these intense repercussions whenever they were illegally sharing copyrighted material on-line... they would just stop doing it. 2013-04-20T19:25:30 Or start the dawn of the undernet 2013-04-20T19:25:32 :P 2013-04-20T19:25:36 Erm, Darknet 2013-04-20T19:27:03 So, all that stuff would just gradually disappear from the Internet, and any discussion about this stuff along with it. 2013-04-20T19:27:28 And people would gradually refuse to buy that stuff. 2013-04-20T19:27:48 Oh, I see. 2013-04-20T19:27:49 There you have it. The industry would collapse. 2013-04-20T19:27:58 A massive boycott of the world! 2013-04-20T19:27:59 :o 2013-04-20T19:28:30 Even so, what I feel is more important is the creation of an "alternate culture" that could realistically replace the current popular culture of today. 2013-04-20T19:28:40 Perhaps the first time I thought of why those big companies were fundamentally evil was when (and perhaps this may sound lame, but this is how it started) I heard of all the changes that dubbing companies do. Because when everything boils down to a "business decision" about how to maximize profits, then none of it feels truly meaningful. 2013-04-20T19:28:56 See Nmlgc~? This is why we need your Expert Opinion 2013-04-20T19:29:14 But I know it can be truly meaningful; especially when the fans take it to be more meaningful than the companies that are in charge. 2013-04-20T19:29:46 I don't think finding an "alternate culture" would be any problem. I mean, just look at all these sites offering Creative Commons-licensed music. 2013-04-20T19:30:50 ^ 2013-04-20T19:30:54 *** Twidona has quit IRC 2013-04-20T19:30:55 Well, there is definitely much alternate culture already out there. But I think we do need a "stronger alternate culture" that could be a greater part of people's lives. 2013-04-20T19:31:22 Well, there's probably a flaw somewhere in my logic, but I've been pretty convinced of that for a long time. 2013-04-20T19:31:46 It looks solid to me 2013-04-20T19:32:37 It's not a flaw in your logic, but I don't think that reasoning by logic alone is something that can find solutions in an open-ended problem. 2013-04-20T19:32:48 Like questions in engineering... 2013-04-20T19:33:19 *** DeltaSierra4 has joined #thcrap 2013-04-20T19:33:45 My reasoning is that if an alternate culture can be strong enough, perhaps as much as an actual religion, then it can mobilize popular opinion more strongly than what the internet alone can do. 2013-04-20T19:34:20 BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA 2013-04-20T19:34:28 I mean, I know that wars aren't something to be praised, but if religion can start wars, then surely it is to be reckoned with as something that is "strong." Something that internet activists cannot come close to. 2013-04-20T19:34:47 Hmmm... 2013-04-20T19:34:58 mfw Internet starts the second Korean war 2013-04-20T19:35:10 * Nazeo has 4 possible wars to fight now. 2013-04-20T19:35:11 nah that's unlikely nvm 2013-04-20T19:35:12 The only "materalization" so far is some protests by some technology group in New York against SOPA. 2013-04-20T19:35:33 err... I think you're leaving out the Egyptian Revolution 2013-04-20T19:35:59 ...? 2013-04-20T19:36:12 That was part of the 4 2013-04-20T19:36:33 ./kick Nazeo go home Nazeo you can't do math 2013-04-20T19:36:48 :c 2013-04-20T19:37:45 Well, certainly the internet has played a large role in modern protests movements, but... I wouldn't say that it has created a culture of its own that is strong enough to do much. That is to say, "internet culture" itself is not strong enough... although of course, I do acknowledge that what I am saying might be unclear due to an unclear definition of "internet culture." 2013-04-20T19:38:27 what is internet culture anyway? 2013-04-20T19:39:02 I don't know myself. But perhaps that's not what I meant in the first place... 2013-04-20T19:39:20 Yes, what I actually meant to say is "an alternate culture" that is alternate to the culture by big business, like Hollywood etc. 2013-04-20T19:39:27 there certainly are aspects that are unique to the internet but they don't seem strong enough to make it show up as distinctive as religious cultures or even the Hippie subculture 2013-04-20T19:39:28 Whether on or off the internet. 2013-04-20T19:40:45 Yes, the Hippie subculture when it actually existed as a big force in the 1970's. I only know about it in an academic sense because it's not like I was alive back then, and only know about it from history class. But perhaps that can be regarded as an example of an "alternate culture," even if it was not very successful in maingtaining itself in the end. 2013-04-20T19:41:27 And once that "alternate culture" is successful enough, it will probably turn in a business on its own. 2013-04-20T19:41:51 Hmm... 2013-04-20T19:42:15 Anonymous Ltd. 2013-04-20T19:42:26 Nazeo is the CEO of the organization 2013-04-20T19:42:37 :/ 2013-04-20T19:42:40 and he is in charge of launching cyberterrorist attacks against North Korea 2013-04-20T19:42:46 ... 2013-04-20T19:43:21 Although the "alternate culture" I am thinking about, which does not exist yet in the U.S. - I think that by its very nature, it would not turn into a business of any kind, since it is "participatory" by its very nature. And no, it's not this "Anonymous" thing. I was there back a few years on 711chan and the invasion wiki when I saw that whole thing get widely known for the first time. 2013-04-20T19:43:36 And of course, change into something else completely. 2013-04-20T19:46:40 But yes, does it not surprise you that my whole idea for this "alternate culture" comes from what is already going on in Japan? My only thoughts about this are, "how the heck did they start this in Japan when they didn't have internet," "why is it so difficult to import it directly into the U.S.," and "why did it have to start in Japan of all countries (assuming that my hypothesis is correct, that the re 2013-04-20T19:46:40 ason that it started in Japan was "by chance" and not to do with the culture of the time)" 2013-04-20T19:48:34 The comparison to religion is definitely good, because I read somewhere that the words "cult" and "culture" have the some origin. But I do think whatever is there in Japan does have some "strength" comparable to religion. 2013-04-20T19:50:23 Yes, this where I read it: http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Protestant_vs._Catholic_atheism 2013-04-20T19:50:26 <[Bot]MagicStone> Title: Protestant vs. Catholic atheism - RationalWiki (at rationalwiki.org) 2013-04-20T19:50:46 ...? 2013-04-20T19:50:54 What did I get myself into? 2013-04-20T19:51:35 Hmm...? 2013-04-20T19:52:08 But that was a digression... 2013-04-20T19:52:30 :P 2013-04-20T19:52:41 You're fine. 2013-04-20T19:53:00 Anyways, here is a good read: http://www.comiket.co.jp/info-a/WhatIsEng080528.pdf ← look at that exponential curve at the very beginning of Comic Market. 2013-04-20T19:55:21 Mmkay~ 2013-04-20T19:57:46 *** tosiaki has quit IRC 2013-04-20T20:11:03 *** tosiaki has joined #thcrap 2013-04-20T20:11:15 I was gone to meet sometime and take them to some location. 2013-04-20T20:13:02 So what is Comic Market? It is what I think could have been an alternate culture in the U.S. if only it could have developed in the U.S. as well. As a culture, it is self-propagating because it promotes itself, and it is probably difficult to start spontaneously. 2013-04-20T20:17:50 It is in starting something like this that I have been pondering for the past 2 years about what exactly to do for it. 2013-04-20T20:19:02 There's options~ 2013-04-20T20:19:26 Hey Nmlgc, do you do the cons? 2013-04-20T20:19:48 Huh? 2013-04-20T20:20:25 Do you attend any anime conventions, or anything like that? 2013-04-20T20:20:39 A~h! 2013-04-20T20:21:04 I'm too scared to go outside unless I absolutely need to~! 2013-04-20T20:21:13 ...! 2013-04-20T20:21:16 Well, reading the Japanese Wikipedia about Comic Market hasn't really helped because all it says is that "after world war II, manga doujinshi (as opposed to literary doujinshi, which are not fanfiction but simply literary magazines by literary clubs) suddenly appeared," to which I can only think, "huh?" 2013-04-20T20:21:21 Ah... I remember this :c 2013-04-20T20:21:26 You should try...! 2013-04-20T20:21:53 ... well, the Chaos Communication Congress is just about the only "convention" I have thought about attending in the future, and that probably doesn't count. 2013-04-20T20:22:00 Do iiiiiiiit. 2013-04-20T20:22:02 c: 2013-04-20T20:22:13 A con is a con, regardless of the subject. 2013-04-20T20:25:28 Of course, in the pdf I linked to earlier, you can clearly read, "in the early days of Comic Market, most of them were original, not parodies (of course, even if it not humorous, they call all fan-works parodies in Japan, because "parody" seems to have a different definition in Japan)," bit I figured, if these "parodies" were what made Comic Market popular, then I might as well skip some of the trouble a 2013-04-20T20:25:28 nd go straight to that. 2013-04-20T20:31:27 * Nmlgc recalls Suzuran's opinion on the subject 2013-04-20T20:31:34 :c 2013-04-20T20:34:00 https://www.dropbox.com/s/75ndns156spmp52/Bad%20News.txt << There it was 2013-04-20T20:34:02 <[Bot]MagicStone> Title: Dropbox - Bad News.txt (at www.dropbox.com) 2013-04-20T20:34:20 Ah yes... that 2013-04-20T20:41:25 The only thing I can say about that is... as long as it's done in real life, the freedom of assembly is protected, and the rest is about doing things in such a way that nobody knows who created anything. That is, of course, a matter if any of this comes under danger of copyright lawsuits. 2013-04-20T20:42:50 .-. 2013-04-20T20:43:25 If you're just distributing things in real life, if you don't write your name on it, they're going to have to find who made it, which would involve a lot of investigation. 2013-04-20T20:44:46 Yeah... 2013-04-20T20:47:30 Furthermore, even if they find who you are, if you release future works in real life while doing stuff like wearing disguises, it's not like they have any means of stopping you, unlike on the internet. 2013-04-20T20:49:04 ... OK, it started out pretty fine actually, but now we're really going crazy. 2013-04-20T20:49:05 In matters like these, the "accesbility to everybody" aspect of the internet is part of its drawback. 2013-04-20T20:49:27 Oh, I meant wearing disguises as an extreme. I would imagine that they would have difficulty tracking you down either way. 2013-04-20T20:49:34 I can't really hide Tos :x 2013-04-20T20:49:55 I sort of am in the army and if they wanted to find me, they will. 2013-04-20T20:50:10 They got DNA, fingerprints, phone records, everything... 2013-04-20T20:50:19 *** Nazeo has left #thcrap 2013-04-20T20:50:47 *** Nazeo has joined #thcrap 2013-04-20T20:50:52 What... happened? 2013-04-20T20:50:55 nothing 2013-04-20T20:51:01 I left somehow... 2013-04-20T20:51:08 Nazeo left the room ("I'll be off."). 2013-04-20T20:51:09 I simply wished I was dead and then you came back 2013-04-20T20:51:10 yeah 2013-04-20T20:51:15 I did...? 2013-04-20T20:51:18 also 2013-04-20T20:51:19 Okay then... 2013-04-20T20:51:24 * KentaKurodani zorks Nazeo 2013-04-20T20:51:24 Derris-Kharlan, aren't these guys from Melbourne 2013-04-20T20:51:24 * Nazeo is zorked 2013-04-20T20:51:24 * DeltaSierra4 pours house centipedes and spiders and silverfishes on Nazeo and his room 2013-04-20T20:51:24 you sir have been 'house-centipeded' 2013-04-20T20:51:24 * DeltaSierra4 also doesn't forget to pour cockroaches in your room 2013-04-20T20:52:23 Anyways, I was sorta joking with the disguises, but of course, since this is not a matter of criminal law that would be a matter that the police would care about, it would be much harder to stop in real life. 2013-04-20T20:53:43 Mainly, of course, due to the fact that you don't have to write your name on your works, and can work from a pseudonym. 2013-04-20T20:56:26 *** DeltaSierra4 is now known as DeadDS4 2013-04-20T20:56:49 In the first place, most copyright holders probably wouldn't care much about it if were small, and if it were large, then it might be a powerful enough force to have countermeasures to avoid getting caught, so I don't think copyright is much of an issue. 2013-04-20T21:01:12 In the first place, when people bring up copyright as a reason why there is no such similar culture in the U.S. as there is in Japan, I find that more of an excuse than an actual reason. Japanese copyright law is, in many ways, more strict because it doesn't have any "fair use" provisions, and all doujinshi is technically prohibitable by the copyright holder. 2013-04-20T21:01:50 For example, the producers of the popular anime "Madoka Magica" has made a statement, "all self-made drawings of Madoka Magica characters are prohibited." 2013-04-20T21:02:01 It has made such a statement years ago... 2013-04-20T21:02:47 Of course, when something is so massive and has such a popular following, it would be an unpopular move to try to take action against it, which is why it is "silently acknowledged" eve if it technically goes against the law. 2013-04-20T21:06:56 Of course, if they ever do take action, it might just lose popularity that people will move on ones that are more permsisive with derivative works. Like the action taken against pokemon doujinshi in Japan in the 1990's. Of course, we still have pokemon doujinshi tday, so we know that they were unsuccessful in eliminating it. 2013-04-20T21:10:30 So, in the end, it all comes down to the fact that there is really no demand for that type of culture. The US seems to be pretty happy to have Hollywood, as well as countless other people all around the world. 2013-04-20T21:11:54 ....... 2013-04-20T21:12:00 Take down Hollywood! 2013-04-20T21:13:51 Why? Just because _you_ want it down? 2013-04-20T21:15:00 Good point. 2013-04-20T21:15:13 Just that they do not produce anything decent nowadays. 2013-04-20T21:17:28 So we should down the entire executing, robbing it of any chance to produce something decent in the future? 2013-04-20T21:18:40 Another good point. Something needs to change with them though. Something that needs to show that they can not produce crap and expect people to pay for it. 2013-04-20T21:18:54 Seems to work, though. 2013-04-20T21:20:34 ? 2013-04-20T21:20:39 Well yeah 2013-04-20T21:20:42 Cuz people are sheep 2013-04-20T21:20:44 :U 2013-04-20T21:40:42 *** nurupo has quit IRC 2013-04-20T21:41:46 *** nurupo has joined #thcrap 2013-04-20T21:43:11 Yes, in the end, it comes to the fact that there is no demand for it, nothing to do with laws of any kind. "The US seems to be pretty happy to have Hollywood" is something that is the problem in itself; although it is not the origin of the problem, which is that there is no alternate viable culture in the first place. Which is what I have been busy with for the past few months. 2013-04-20T21:45:23 But how will you achieve an alternate viable culture without becoming just as commercial? 2013-04-20T21:45:34 *how would 2013-04-20T21:45:37 Gah, I hate money. 2013-04-20T21:46:02 There's no guarantee that it won't become commercial, but the "life" of it comes from community exchange rather than any individual's work. 2013-04-20T21:46:29 And also from it's open participatory nature, its feeling of "dialogue." 2013-04-20T21:47:19 *** Ibaraki_Ibuki has quit IRC 2013-04-20T21:55:00 *** Ibaraki_Ibuki has joined #thcrap 2013-04-20T21:55:23 *** tosiaki has quit IRC 2013-04-20T22:02:59 *** tosiaki has joined #thcrap 2013-04-20T22:23:19 *** Nazeo has quit IRC 2013-04-20T22:47:26 *** Nmlgc has quit IRC 2013-04-20T23:34:18 *** Ibaraki_Ibuki has quit IRC 2013-04-20T23:34:51 *** Ibaraki_Ibuki has joined #thcrap