2012-11-05T00:01:00 *** fsvgm777 has quit IRC 2012-11-05T00:05:25 *** Nmlgc has quit IRC 2012-11-05T00:17:09 *** Nazeo|Work has joined #thcrap 2012-11-05T01:03:34 *** Nmlgc has joined #thcrap 2012-11-05T01:18:40 \o 2012-11-05T01:18:42 ... 2012-11-05T01:18:43 Wow 2012-11-05T01:18:48 Late on that one... 2012-11-05T01:19:09 Yeah, and I'm leaving in a few moments, too. 2012-11-05T01:19:14 Ah... 2012-11-05T01:19:20 Can't sleep. Too many ideas for the next development phase. 2012-11-05T01:19:58 Also, I finally had the no-brainer idea to add caching for MediaWiki's load.php. The site should be much faster now 2012-11-05T01:23:59 \o/ 2012-11-05T01:24:04 ( Again... late ) 2012-11-05T01:24:19 Also, I know what you mean about the no sleeping 2012-11-05T01:24:28 * Nazeo|Work has caught insomnia as well 2012-11-05T01:27:12 * Nmlgc tries to sleep again 2012-11-05T01:27:15 *** Nmlgc has quit IRC 2012-11-05T01:32:07 * Nazeo|Work smacks himself 2012-11-05T01:32:22 What is the matter with you! 2012-11-05T01:32:23 >:C 2012-11-05T01:32:33 Missing goodbyes... 2012-11-05T01:32:38 * Nazeo|Work sets himself on fire 2012-11-05T03:37:02 *** Nazeo|Work has quit IRC 2012-11-05T04:28:18 *** Nazeo has joined #thcrap 2012-11-05T05:49:46 *** Nazeo_Aelko_Neze has joined #thcrap 2012-11-05T05:53:20 *** Nazeo has quit IRC 2012-11-05T05:53:52 *** Nazeo_Aelko_Neze is now known as Nazeo 2012-11-05T06:01:03 * Nazeo quickly grabs a page to work on b4 DC/es 2012-11-05T06:01:08 *DC/ed 2012-11-05T06:06:19 *** Nazeo has quit IRC 2012-11-05T06:11:35 *** AbstractCactus has joined #thcrap 2012-11-05T06:13:18 *** AbstractCactus has quit IRC 2012-11-05T07:10:01 *** Ibaraki_Ibuki has quit IRC 2012-11-05T10:35:54 *** fsvgm777 has joined #thcrap 2012-11-05T13:17:29 *** Nmlgc has joined #thcrap 2012-11-05T15:17:45 *** TonyUK has joined #thcrap 2012-11-05T15:24:24 *** Nmlgc has quit IRC 2012-11-05T15:27:56 *** Suzuran has joined #thcrap 2012-11-05T15:33:01 *** NightLunya has joined #thcrap 2012-11-05T15:33:16 Hey all 2012-11-05T15:37:33 *** NightLunya has quit IRC 2012-11-05T15:37:54 *** Sosso has joined #thcrap 2012-11-05T15:41:09 *** nurupo has quit IRC 2012-11-05T15:41:47 *** nurupo has joined #thcrap 2012-11-05T15:54:45 *** TonyUK has quit IRC 2012-11-05T16:01:53 *** Sosso has quit IRC 2012-11-05T16:45:23 *** Nmlgc has joined #thcrap 2012-11-05T17:08:50 *** Nazeo has joined #thcrap 2012-11-05T17:09:11 \o 2012-11-05T17:10:14 \o 2012-11-05T17:12:51 So... turns out I was not able to grab the page b4 I DC/ed 2012-11-05T17:12:52 Ugh 2012-11-05T17:16:17 Oh Makku came earlier I see. 2012-11-05T17:16:29 I started to contact peoples about pics 2012-11-05T17:27:32 Oh, the avatars for the trailer? 2012-11-05T17:28:45 * Nazeo nods 2012-11-05T17:29:33 Cool, thanks. But keep in mind that it's just an optional thing, not everyone has to have one. 2012-11-05T17:30:03 I know, just giving them the option :P 2012-11-05T17:49:40 Well, the trailer probably won't be out until I've made decent progress with the first release version and can actually announce a fixed release date, so we still have plenty of time for that 2012-11-05T17:50:12 Yup yup! 2012-11-05T17:50:57 Going to bed then. Expect translatable templates for tomorrow. \o 2012-11-05T17:51:00 \o 2012-11-05T17:51:05 *** Nmlgc has quit IRC 2012-11-05T17:51:05 Good night friend! 2012-11-05T18:14:27 *** TonyUK has joined #thcrap 2012-11-05T18:23:21 *** TonyUK has quit IRC 2012-11-05T18:36:44 *** AbstractCactus has joined #thcrap 2012-11-05T18:38:21 Hello. I was told to give a credit picture to Nmglc, when are they usually online? 2012-11-05T18:41:13 You could give it to me and I can hand it over to him~ 2012-11-05T18:41:35 Ah, okay. 2012-11-05T18:41:38 Are there any size restrictions? 2012-11-05T18:41:52 Not really no 2012-11-05T18:41:58 They will be resized 2012-11-05T18:42:01 All right then 2012-11-05T18:42:23 http://i.imgur.com/9QPQz.jpg this should do 2012-11-05T18:42:30 Ok! 2012-11-05T18:42:34 I'll hand this to Nmlgc 2012-11-05T18:42:36 Thanks AbstractCactus! 2012-11-05T18:42:49 Thank you 2012-11-05T18:42:50 bye 2012-11-05T18:42:51 \o 2012-11-05T18:42:57 *** AbstractCactus has quit IRC 2012-11-05T18:55:23 *** Nazeo has quit IRC 2012-11-05T18:56:26 *** TonyUK has joined #thcrap 2012-11-05T19:14:06 *** TonyUK has quit IRC 2012-11-05T19:25:34 *** Nazeo has joined #thcrap 2012-11-05T19:37:05 Hey Nazeo 2012-11-05T19:37:13 Question for you. A scenario rather. 2012-11-05T19:38:13 ? 2012-11-05T19:38:18 What's up? 2012-11-05T19:38:36 Pretend someone tasks you to go unplug some piece of equipment. You go over and pull out the plug, but note that one of the blades of the plug failed, tore out of the plug, and remains in the outlet. What do you do about it? 2012-11-05T19:39:09 I'd report it, then replace it 2012-11-05T19:39:28 That's a good answer. What if nobody is around to report it to? 2012-11-05T19:39:35 Oh no... 2012-11-05T19:39:48 Given the Scenario... 2012-11-05T19:40:33 I'd leave a sign saying "Out of Order" and perhaps wait for said person who gave me the task to come back and then report it 2012-11-05T19:40:50 I guess I'll accept that. 2012-11-05T19:41:01 In any event, pulling it out with pliers is not an option? 2012-11-05T19:41:14 Isn't that dangerous? 2012-11-05T19:41:20 Yes :) 2012-11-05T19:41:27 :( 2012-11-05T19:41:28 It's a live outlet 2012-11-05T19:41:42 See, even Nazeo is smart enough not to do this~ 2012-11-05T19:41:48 Oh no... 2012-11-05T19:41:51 What happened? 2012-11-05T19:42:25 (Someone got into ALSAFE by getting themselves into this situation aboard a navy vessel, but decided to just grab the blade with a pliers and shocked the bejabbers out of themselves) 2012-11-05T19:42:50 Well... guess he won't be doing that again... 2012-11-05T19:43:48 I asked a few people semi-randomly this same scenario and every one of them tried to avoid contact with the blade 2012-11-05T19:44:16 Only one of them offered to extract the blade, but only after having opened the circuit breaker first and checked with a light to see the power was off 2012-11-05T19:44:32 Ah... 2012-11-05T19:44:40 Well... getting "shocked the bejabbers" outta ya hurts 2012-11-05T19:44:47 Yes 2012-11-05T19:55:12 *** Ibaraki_Ibuki has joined #thcrap 2012-11-05T20:02:03 what, the man's pliers didn't even have rubber handle? 2012-11-05T20:02:18 *rubber-coated handles, even 2012-11-05T20:02:35 ... 2012-11-05T20:02:42 Even that has it's limits 2012-11-05T20:02:45 I thought it's kinda standard. 2012-11-05T20:03:30 yeah it has limits. but then, if you're not simultaneously wet and standing on metallic floor or something, you're not going to be hurt even with uncoated pliers. 2012-11-05T20:04:40 well, it largely depends on the voltage we're talking about. 2012-11-05T20:11:57 albel727: Those are rated for basically no voltage 2012-11-05T20:13:12 it's only a sign of manufacturers not wanting to bother with certification and giving any guarantees. 2012-11-05T20:13:21 doesn't mean it's not actually effective. 2012-11-05T20:13:34 * Nazeo groans 2012-11-05T20:13:55 I think that guy getting zapped pretty much sums that up 2012-11-05T20:13:57 :P 2012-11-05T20:15:16 well, we don't know the circumstances. either they were rubbered, or he accidentally touched the bare parts, and maybe there was some grounded piece of equipment near him, which he holded on during that. I posit, he was just an idiot, but in principle it could be done safely, if you know what you're doing. 2012-11-05T20:15:26 ... 2012-11-05T20:15:28 s/they were/they weren't/ 2012-11-05T20:15:29 Kids 2012-11-05T20:15:33 Don't play with pliers 2012-11-05T20:16:17 I won't even dignify that half-assed scaredy cat advice with a response. 2012-11-05T20:16:26 Eh? 2012-11-05T20:17:06 :/ 2012-11-05T20:17:11 You go play with them then 2012-11-05T20:17:14 eh what? a real advice would be "Kids, know what you're doing first". 2012-11-05T20:17:23 Yeah... 2012-11-05T20:17:31 Turn off the power, then remove 2012-11-05T20:17:43 yeah, that would be ideal. but not strictly necessary. 2012-11-05T20:18:01 nor always possible. 2012-11-05T20:18:06 I again, invite you to do so. You may have shocking results. 2012-11-05T20:18:28 you talk like a man, who never ever assembled/disassembled a plug/socket. 2012-11-05T20:18:41 :/ 2012-11-05T20:18:49 And you talk like one who has? 2012-11-05T20:18:54 sure I do. 2012-11-05T20:19:12 that has something to do with the fact, that I did it. 2012-11-05T20:19:25 Why are we arguing this? 2012-11-05T20:19:46 not sure. I'm right. you should have just admitted that rightaway. :3 2012-11-05T20:20:02 oooooooooookay then. You are right 2012-11-05T20:20:05 :/ 2012-11-05T20:20:18 no need to be so openly disappointed about it. 2012-11-05T20:20:39 * Nazeo shrugs 2012-11-05T20:21:04 pretending to be indifferent is not helping either. :P 2012-11-05T20:21:23 Honestly... I don't really care about this conversation 2012-11-05T20:21:26 It serves no purpose 2012-11-05T20:21:58 eh? since when arguments have no purpose? they're the one and only method to search for the truth! 2012-11-05T20:22:11 I was AFK 2012-11-05T20:22:21 It's not important Suzy 2012-11-05T20:22:25 albel727: No, it's not that at all. Insulative rubber is expensive and unnecessary most of the time 2012-11-05T20:22:31 They aren't being cheap at all 2012-11-05T20:22:46 The insulative rubber has different properties and is unsuitable for some work 2012-11-05T20:22:53 So the rubber used normally is general-purpose 2012-11-05T20:23:14 If you are working on electricity you need special tools designed and optimized for that purpose. 2012-11-05T20:23:35 I was merely working in the confines of the scenario. 2012-11-05T20:23:36 :/ 2012-11-05T20:23:40 You're fine 2012-11-05T20:23:47 In short. I worked with what was given to me 2012-11-05T20:23:52 are you to say now, that general purpose rubber has worse insulation properties than air? 2012-11-05T20:24:16 albel727: At high voltages yes. Air is a very good insulator. 2012-11-05T20:24:30 I know that. but that's not what I was asking. 2012-11-05T20:25:04 At wall current voltage, rubber is probably good enough, but that's only if it has 100% coverage at sufficient thickness 2012-11-05T20:25:17 But that "probably" is just the thing. 2012-11-05T20:25:30 If you're doing this work for a living you can't settle for "probably" 2012-11-05T20:25:33 You need "absolutely" 2012-11-05T20:25:41 well, let's admit it, that even 1mm thickness is more than enough for wall current. 2012-11-05T20:26:03 1mm? Naah, that's too thin. It'd be easy to breach it. 2012-11-05T20:26:07 and I've never ever saw pliers with coating thinner than that. 2012-11-05T20:26:16 That also wouldn't account for spikes on the line. 2012-11-05T20:26:31 You always want a factor of 4 above what you plan to be working on 2012-11-05T20:26:46 eh? you wanna say that 1mm of rubber can be breached with something lower than 1000 volts? 2012-11-05T20:26:58 No, not by the voltage, by mechanical action. 2012-11-05T20:27:13 When you put strain on it, it might fail 2012-11-05T20:27:37 Besides, it's not the voltage that determines breach, it's the current 2012-11-05T20:27:50 well, before we delve further into that "regular electric worker" line of thought, we're talking about removing a blade from a socket. 2012-11-05T20:27:51 I can push 5 volts through an inch of rubber given enough amperage. 2012-11-05T20:28:20 In any event 2012-11-05T20:28:29 The only safe course of action is to de-energize the socket. 2012-11-05T20:28:30 nah, it doesn't work like that. ionization barrier is strictly dependent on voltage, not on current. 2012-11-05T20:29:04 The point of the question was just to see if anyone else was dumb enough to just grab the exposed blade and pull on it. 2012-11-05T20:29:05 in fact, there's no current at all, unless you've breached rubber already. 2012-11-05T20:29:14 The incident person was. 2012-11-05T20:29:26 the point of my answer was that there's nothing dumb about it. 2012-11-05T20:29:43 and it rather was the fault of the man in question. 2012-11-05T20:30:11 There absolutely is. There is no point to take the risk of working on energized equipment when there is not a legitimate need to do so. 2012-11-05T20:30:18 Any electrical worker will tell you this. 2012-11-05T20:30:48 yeah. b/c it's what he does sufficiently often to try and minimize his risks as much as possible. 2012-11-05T20:31:15 for a normal person having good pliers, good boots and not touching anything, wall current won't do a thing. 2012-11-05T20:31:16 I've worked on equipment fed with 480 volt power and HV supplies developing above 150KV. And we shut the equipment off even though it meant loss of money for the owners. 2012-11-05T20:31:30 ... 2012-11-05T20:31:32 Because it wasn't worth the risk of killing someone or damaging the equipment further. 2012-11-05T20:31:41 That makes sense 2012-11-05T20:32:07 you still fall into extreme cases. we're talking removing a piece of metal from a plug, remember? 2012-11-05T20:32:10 If you're trying to justify being macho around electricity you're preaching to the wrong crowd. Go spout that crap over at Darwin's where the next death is on the house. 2012-11-05T20:32:16 s/plug/socket/ 2012-11-05T20:32:31 Doesn't matter. 120V can kill you if you are unlucky. 2012-11-05T20:32:36 Don't press your luck. 2012-11-05T20:32:50 lol, what's there to be macho about. it just is not as dangerous as to be macho about it. 2012-11-05T20:33:13 yeah, for those 120V to kill you you have to be wet or your skin to be damaged somehow else. 2012-11-05T20:33:23 Besides, it's not the death you're worried about, it's the permanent nerve/muscle damage 2012-11-05T20:33:36 You don't have to be wet, you just have to be a path to ground. 2012-11-05T20:33:53 dry skin resistance is enough to not be afraid about being the path. 2012-11-05T20:34:11 ... 2012-11-05T20:34:24 While you are at it, delete your system 32 2012-11-05T20:34:39 100% Satisfaction rate 2012-11-05T20:34:40 I have linux, thank you. 2012-11-05T20:34:49 and you're being unreasonable. 2012-11-05T20:34:52 ... 2012-11-05T20:35:00 I'm being unreasonable? 2012-11-05T20:35:03 yes. 2012-11-05T20:35:28 I'm giving physics in support of my point. you just suggest me to do something destructive. 2012-11-05T20:35:41 * Nazeo facepalms 2012-11-05T20:35:48 for all intents and purposes I'd say that fits the description of "being unreasonable". 2012-11-05T20:35:53 Uh no 2012-11-05T20:35:58 That guy got shocked 2012-11-05T20:36:02 Your point is now moot 2012-11-05T20:36:09 yeah. we don't know why. so it's not. 2012-11-05T20:36:24 Then... this argument is over 2012-11-05T20:36:37 Until further evidence comes in 2012-11-05T20:36:39 Fair? 2012-11-05T20:36:46 no, it's not. because it's not about that guy. it's about whether it could be done safely. 2012-11-05T20:37:01 Yes, it COULD be done safely. Open the breaker. 2012-11-05T20:37:06 Or use tools rated for the voltage. 2012-11-05T20:37:17 *could be done safely without cutting off power 2012-11-05T20:37:41 You can bet your health and/or life on your wal-mart/kmart/whatever if you want, but myself and every professional I have ever met or worked with knows better. 2012-11-05T20:38:17 You are right, 120V@20 amps is unlikely to kill you outright - But it is dense enough to cause burns and nerve damage if you're unlucky. 2012-11-05T20:38:42 There is no point to push your luck for essentially a few minutes of gain. 2012-11-05T20:39:11 Your mindset is why we continue to need preachy safety products to tell people not to take pointless risks. 2012-11-05T20:40:45 If you're so certain you can take 120V with no effects, why not prove it? Go video yourself grounding out 120V for a few seconds. I'll even make it easy for you and allow it to be a one-arm shock instead of cross-body. 2012-11-05T20:41:02 if I worked as electrician, in my regular course of work I'd do exactly what you say. but in this case there's practically no risk. it's not even regular electrician's work. it's just a piece of metal stuck in socket. the guy could even try and put it back in fork and wrestle it out. 2012-11-05T20:41:03 Post that video on youtube and then I'll say you're right. Until then, shut up. 2012-11-05T20:41:27 lol 2012-11-05T20:41:29 no u 2012-11-05T20:41:34 ...? 2012-11-05T20:41:37 Dude 2012-11-05T20:41:47 You are the one who has something to prove, not us 2012-11-05T20:42:09 eh? and why exactly is that? your opinion is somehow better than mine, so you don't have to prove it? 2012-11-05T20:42:14 Eh, not so much something to prove as a troll who worked himself into a corner 2012-11-05T20:42:27 and I'm not sure why I have to do some unrelated stupid stunt to prove my opinion, either. 2012-11-05T20:43:08 yeah, when you have run out of counter-arguments, people resort to namecalling. 2012-11-05T20:43:09 Well, you don't have any other legs to stand on. What I say is supported by decades of documentation and standard industry practice 2012-11-05T20:43:18 s/people/you/ 2012-11-05T20:43:23 You're the one with the odd opinion 2012-11-05T20:43:31 And since when is troll a name-call? 2012-11-05T20:43:36 Do you even know who I am? 2012-11-05T20:43:47 If anyone here is a troll, it's me. 2012-11-05T20:43:52 ^ 2012-11-05T20:43:56 I know 2012-11-05T20:43:57 ever since it became an insult, that invalidates an opinion. 2012-11-05T20:44:04 *supposedly 2012-11-05T20:44:09 That's stupid. 2012-11-05T20:44:10 I had it happen ;-; 2012-11-05T20:44:13 ? 2012-11-05T20:44:28 That's like the idea that the word "Cracker" is now a racial slur so the food item must be renamed 2012-11-05T20:44:42 Just because a popular misconception is popular doesn't make it any less a misconception. 2012-11-05T20:44:50 I don't care how you view yourself, or prefer to call yourself. I'm not a troll. and you calling me so is not a valid argument in this discussion either. 2012-11-05T20:45:19 My statement stands. My position is supported by nearly the entire electrical service industry. You stand alone. 2012-11-05T20:46:23 "The Ten Commandments of Electrical/Electronic Safety" 2012-11-05T20:46:32 VII. Work thou not on energized equipment without proper procedures, for if thou dost so, thy shipmates will surely be buying beers for thy widow and consoling her in ways not generally acceptable to thee. 2012-11-05T20:46:49 your position is supported only in industry setting (while we're talking a single unconnected case), which has to assume regular work and dumb electricians (while we're talking a sensible person), who do the stupidiest things, and would die like flies, if they weren't following the rules you outlined. 2012-11-05T20:47:25 ... 2012-11-05T20:47:26 Dude 2012-11-05T20:47:34 What are you doing 2012-11-05T20:47:46 Think about this carefully 2012-11-05T20:47:47 err... arguing, obviously? 2012-11-05T20:47:52 Ok 2012-11-05T20:47:53 Why? 2012-11-05T20:47:56 What's to gain? 2012-11-05T20:48:04 If you are being bored... 2012-11-05T20:48:08 Plz not here 2012-11-05T20:48:11 as I've already said - the truth. 2012-11-05T20:48:22 You stand to gain 5 minutes of time, versus the risk of permanent injury. 2012-11-05T20:48:23 I thought it was your opnion 2012-11-05T20:49:08 yeah. and argument is the mean to search opinions that are closer to the truth. one of us is to come closer to the truth today. 2012-11-05T20:49:29 Take it somewhere else 2012-11-05T20:49:33 Thanks but no thanks 2012-11-05T20:49:43 I'm not arguing with you. 2012-11-05T20:49:54 Could you please not interfere? 2012-11-05T20:49:57 Idc. This is not the place to do it in 2012-11-05T20:50:01 I don't think anyone's arguing with anyone really 2012-11-05T20:50:48 This is ideological if anything. I'm not saying IF YOU WORK ON ENERGIZED 120V YOU WILL DIE, I'm just saying that there's no point in taking the risk for essentially no gain. 2012-11-05T20:50:52 the problem with your thinking, Suzuran, is that you don't seem to realize, that there are greater risks, that you take everyday, even to the smaller gains. 2012-11-05T20:51:12 So? You control the ones you can and you disregard the ones you can't. 2012-11-05T20:51:13 there's no such thing as "just risk". which you take or not take. 2012-11-05T20:51:42 That's absolutely correct. Managing unnecessary risk is the very cornerstone of ORM. 2012-11-05T20:51:49 *incorrect 2012-11-05T20:52:03 you always take some risks to some gains. and I claim, that in this case 5 minutes are more than worth such a low risk, as being 120V-ed with rubber pliers and good boots on. 2012-11-05T20:52:04 Risk is not a fixed quantity 2012-11-05T20:52:57 I have the opposite opinion, the insulated pliers and boots MIGHT save you, but 5 minutes to open the breaker WILL save you. 2012-11-05T20:53:51 nope. it also just "might" save you. there's nothing absolute. the current breaking through a breaker is just more improbable, but not impossible. 2012-11-05T20:55:01 I can compare the risk of being 120V-ed in the case to inhaling a speck of dust and suffocate to death. and your roundabout way - to always breathe through a filtering mask. one just doesn't usually do it. it's not worth it. 2012-11-05T20:55:38 You're wrong then. 2012-11-05T20:55:39 See http://dl.dropbox.com/u/12368207/Screenshots/9_.jpeg 2012-11-05T20:55:54 yeah. so? 2012-11-05T20:56:31 *** Nazeo has quit IRC 2012-11-05T20:57:09 http://dl.dropbox.com/u/12368207/Screenshots/9~.jpeg 2012-11-05T20:57:54 it talks about when the current is already in your body. which means, it came through the rubber pliers, through the rubber of your boots, and through natural resistance of your skin. the latter is possible even with 120V, given some conditions, but not the former two. 2012-11-05T20:58:26 and your second pic is about "regular work in complicated environment". again, that's not about a blade in a socket. 2012-11-05T20:59:59 You're still wrong 2012-11-05T21:00:00 http://dl.dropbox.com/u/12368207/Screenshots/a0.jpeg 2012-11-05T21:00:20 I'm still not sure why you trust a circuit breaker under 120V, but don't trust rubber on your pliers and boots, which does essentially the same. 2012-11-05T21:00:35 and your third pic is in no way shape or form is different from your first one. 2012-11-05T21:00:49 it's still about when the current is already in your body. 2012-11-05T21:01:19 Oh, I don't trust the breaker either. Did you miss the part about using your meter to verify? 2012-11-05T21:01:36 (In the example given, a lamp instead of a meter) 2012-11-05T21:01:37 no, I didn't. but that was accounted by "complicated environment" part. 2012-11-05T21:02:17 I think I see what's going on 2012-11-05T21:02:35 there's still nothing complicated in a piece of metal sticking from a socket. you're not going to do some long or complicated work with it, that requires touching it or other parts of it and around. 2012-11-05T21:02:44 I'm not saying to barehand grab the blade once the breaker is open. That would be equally stupid. 2012-11-05T21:03:01 I'm saying open the breaker, verify it's dead, then use your pliers and good boots to pull the blade. 2012-11-05T21:03:06 nah. even with just boots it would be fine. 2012-11-05T21:03:50 well, with high enough voltage, you could be electrocuted while fully isolated, just thanks to your inherent capacity. but it's not in our case. 2012-11-05T21:03:59 At this point I firmly believe you are arguing just for the sake of arguing. 2012-11-05T21:05:27 well, you just ignoring my point, so maybe. I say, it's not risky. you say, you should guard yourself against any risk, no matter how small it is. which is obviously unreasonable, b/c you couldn't then make a step without fearing of breaking your leg. 2012-11-05T21:05:42 I am at work and I have better things to do than quote OSHA at the unwilling. If I wanted to do that I'd go back to utility work. Go ahead and light yourself up, but don't come whining to me when the doctor tells you that your fingers will never work again or your parents you only took two or three hours to cook to death. 2012-11-05T21:06:22 notice, that all you can throw at me, is insults. you're still being unreasonable. 2012-11-05T21:06:38 I have not insulted you at any point so far. 2012-11-05T21:06:47 If I wanted to insult you I would do so directly. 2012-11-05T21:06:48 "go light yourself up"? sorry? 2012-11-05T21:07:14 Isn't that what normally happens when electricity is applied to a resistance? 2012-11-05T21:08:00 For some reason you seem to think that taking the ordinary and sane precautions taken by an entire industry is a challenge to your manhood 2012-11-05T21:08:16 And I'm really not here to argue penis sizes with you 2012-11-05T21:08:23 nope. it only happens if big enough electricity is applied to small enough resistance. 120V and rubber boots don't fit that criteria 2012-11-05T21:08:56 here, you're making weird comparisons again. what the hell a penis have to do with the problem at hand? 2012-11-05T21:09:15 I've already posted why that's not the case and you ignore it. There's any number of manuals telling you that's not the case but you'll ignore them too. 2012-11-05T21:09:18 (no pun intended) 2012-11-05T21:09:30 I don't believe that for a minute :) 2012-11-05T21:09:45 no, you've posted some general research on what electricity does to a human body. it's only of tangential relation to rubber boots. 2012-11-05T21:10:31 Because the boots don't matter if there's any other path to ground. If you touch the wall or floor with anything other than the soles of your boots, if your tool slips, if someone else touches you, etc 2012-11-05T21:11:16 Again, I am not saying that even if you pull the blade with rubber pliers and boots the 120V will bridge the gap and kill you. I am saying if anything goes wrong at any point you stand to be injured. 2012-11-05T21:11:21 And things go wrong very regularly. 2012-11-05T21:12:02 Gambling 5 minutes to open the breaker vs. months or years of disability if you are injured is not worth it. 2012-11-05T21:12:03 if my tool slips then nothing will happen. b/c while I only touch ground with boots, I can remove the piece of metal with my bare hands. and I've explicitely stated, that I wouldn't touch anything else. nor would I allow people to be near me at the moment. that's the definition of being "sensible". 2012-11-05T21:12:56 Then why does the entire industry not work your way? Surely it would save lots of time and money, and I've certainly seen lots of corners cut to save money. 2012-11-05T21:14:30 I've explained it already. industry has to deal with dumb electricians, complex and varying conditions, prolonged work, and lots of cases, which multiplies the risk of that one-off case immensively. 2012-11-05T21:15:59 so, yeah. If I worked as an electrician, I'd do what you suggest to do. just because I wouldn't break the useful habit. but for a sensible layman, the case could've been resolved like I say. 2012-11-05T21:16:02 All I know is that if I keep doing what I am doing there's a good chance I'll go home at the end of the day, and if everyone else did what you are talking about then I would have a lot more job opportunities in the future. 2012-11-05T21:16:38 You sure keep on doing things your way. It's only justified. 2012-11-05T21:18:14 oh well, I think we've heard each other. it was nice arguing with you. 2012-11-05T21:18:27 Likewise 2012-11-05T21:27:47 well, I think I'm gonna take it less lightly from now on. It's my life to gamble, alright, but I don't think I want it to depend on whether I'm correcly judging my "sensibility". 2012-11-05T21:32:54 There's a happy medium to be found. If I were so risk-averse as to avoid anything risky I would never have learned to fly 2012-11-05T21:34:12 wow, you can fly? as in, you're a pilot? 2012-11-05T21:37:23 judging from your lack of response, I suspect some kind of misunderstanding on my part. 2012-11-05T21:39:37 No 2012-11-05T21:39:42 Like I said, I'm at work 2012-11-05T21:40:18 I was a student pilot. I soloed, but my employer went bankrupt before I could finish. I was about 75% done with lessons. 2012-11-05T21:40:30 I plan to go finish later when I have the time and money 2012-11-05T21:44:09 oh. well, I'm also working, just so you know in case I get late with response. cool. what did you fly? 2012-11-05T21:45:00 Cessna 152. Little thing, but lots of fun. I've also flown the full-motion 737NG and A320 simulators. 2012-11-05T21:45:53 I like to tell people "One of the airplanes I've flown is in the National Air and Space Museum!" which sounds really impressive until they realize there's a 152 there. 2012-11-05T21:46:03 It looks funny seeing it parked with all the jets 2012-11-05T21:47:50 I also "flew" a helicopter at an airshow once, where "flew" means "barely didn't crash" 2012-11-05T21:48:23 Airplanes are easy to fly but helicopters are a major pain in the ass 2012-11-05T21:49:49 yeah, I can imagine. 2012-11-05T21:50:52 well, I guess it goes for all vehicles, which you have to make unstable in order to make it go somewhere. 2012-11-05T21:52:09 Airplanes are pretty stable as things go. Point the nose, trim the airplane, and it'll carry on that direction all day until the fuel runs out. (Just ask Payne Stewart) 2012-11-05T21:52:25 Helicopters are really unstable though, polar opposite. 2012-11-05T21:52:46 yeah, I was talking about the latter. 2012-11-05T21:53:36 One of the things that surprised me was just how far you can get without an engine. I was expecting 10, maybe 15 miles, but you can get almost twice that. 2012-11-05T21:53:47 Further if the weather cooperates 2012-11-05T21:54:11 interesting 2012-11-05T21:54:14 It gets better for the airliners. Lose everything on a 737 and you have about 400 miles before you have to worry about anything 2012-11-05T21:54:30 hehehe 2012-11-05T21:54:39 Your bigger problem in that case is keeping the battery alive so you can talk to people and get them out of your way 2012-11-05T21:54:40 guess inertia is there not for nothing 2012-11-05T21:54:44 Yep 2012-11-05T21:54:56 Also modern wings are far better than they were 50 years ago 2012-11-05T21:55:31 I imagine 2012-11-05T21:55:48 I mean yeah, there was the occasional miracle of lucky design (Supermarine, I'm looking at you!) but on the average the propliners and early jets were draggy as hell 2012-11-05T21:56:24 When CAD happened around the 727 era it was an order of magnitude improvement 2012-11-05T21:58:09 wonder what large scale physical simulation did to wings, when it appeared. 2012-11-05T21:59:44 Well, it made them easier to iterate 2012-11-05T21:59:49 We always had wind tunnels 2012-11-05T22:00:04 It was just easier to prequalify a design change in the computer 2012-11-05T22:00:37 Before you could get 10, maybe 15 tests of a given wing before you ran out of budget and had to pick one to go with. 2012-11-05T22:00:54 well yeah. but if you can do 10000 iterations that's bound to improve things drastically. 2012-11-05T22:00:57 With CAD they could pretest a design in simulation thousands of times 2012-11-05T22:08:08 *** NightLunya has joined #thcrap 2012-11-05T22:12:33 *** NightLunya has quit IRC 2012-11-05T23:23:12 *** Nazeo has joined #thcrap 2012-11-05T23:30:52 *** TonyUK has joined #thcrap 2012-11-05T23:45:16 *** Tony64 has joined #thcrap 2012-11-05T23:48:05 *** Antonio64 has joined #thcrap 2012-11-05T23:48:36 *** TonyUK has quit IRC 2012-11-05T23:51:02 *** Tony64 has quit IRC 2012-11-05T23:53:25 *** Suzuran has quit IRC 2012-11-05T23:57:17 *** Antonio64 has quit IRC 2012-11-05T23:57:36 *** Antonio64 has joined #thcrap